LPT: We’re curious about the full title of the show A2B2C.I.D – SO HELP ME DOG, and we wonder what A2B2C.I.D refers to?

DEAN: The Theatre Company 1927 put a call out for ideas for a new play offering a bursary of 1400. During Covid I was awarded funding from ACE to write my memoirs- I sent in to 1927 the idea of writing a play based on anecdotes from my book. I was awarded the bursary. The book covers my journey literally from Birth. I was born into a notorious North West London crime family- A large part of my journey was A 2 B- but then aged 15 I came into contact with the Police force’s Criminal Investigation Department- Hence A2B 2 C.I.D-

LPT: We hear that we are to expect a courtroom drama. What are the most important elements of this?

DEAN: It’s mainly a surreal courtroom drama but is based on an actual one. The important element of any case or trial is that the truth is sort and revealed. This is done through prosecution and defence. It’s vitally important that jury of 12 hears and understands the truth. It is only then that a fair verdict can be given. However, we do know that many innocent men and women do get sentenced to prison when they are not guilty of the charges put before them. Our main character DANNY FRANKS gets the chance to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. This means he reveals everything about his life from birth. In a normal trial you only get to talk about the charges brought against you.

LPT: What is it about courtroom dramas that often produce such intense and fascinating theatre?

LIL: The stakes are so high. It is a gladiatorial arena. It is almost sport. Not unlike football. Two teams, a ref, the accused is the ball. It is theatre. There are clearly defined roles and of course (though not always apparent at Snaresbrook Court) the almost mystical language of the law.  In Britain we have all the fancy costumes and wigs and one of the most complex systems of law in the world. But there are declamations left right and centre and some very high camp.

LPT: So, should we expect this from SO HELP ME DOG?

LIL: Dean has created an outlandish courtroom world where DANNY FRANKS is also being prosecuted for just existing. It is a great device to tell his story with ever tightening pressure from an unrelenting and uncaring prosecutor.  I also learnt a lot of stuff about our legal system that frankly, blew my mind.

LPT: Dean, please could you tell us a little about yourself and the inspiration behind the drama.

DEAN: This play is based on a true story. I was sentenced and served 3 and a half years for handling 6 million pounds worth of art. It took 4 years to come to court. The reason being is that the actual owners of the art refused to come into open court to give evidence pertaining to the value of the art. The owners are from shall we say, the upper class. I was born in 1963 into a criminal family. A family that had no trust in education. A working -class family. My dad was a dustman and my mother was a cleaner. They did the best they could with the tools they had. My case was based on class. I bought the art legitimately but was deemed not worthy of it because of where I came from. It was the upper classes versus the working classes. I was never going to get a fair trial.

LPT: Lil, how did you meet Dean and how much of a rapport do you have between you?

LIL: I went to see Dean’s play, BARRED, in a shop in Forest Gate. I could not believe the power and eloquence of it and asked Dean to keep tight with me. That I wanted to see everything he put on. Warwick University ran an event in Bishopsgate and I saw more of Dean’s work and also met the acclaimed poet, Joelle Taylor. It was a great day because I went on to direct a project called Hackney Dissent and Joelle led some of the SLAM workshops and Dean came on it and wrote a poem for a book that got published. Some of that poem appears in the play. I also directed CELLFIES in which Dean appeared with Martin Head, that played here at the Hen & Chickens. Me and Dean speak the same language. We trust each other. We have different approaches and tastes but we respect each other and artistically we have each other’s backs. That’s important.

LPT: Having heard both of you speak at the Hen and Chickens 25^th anniversary celebrations, we have picked up that you are both champions of the working classes. What do you each of you say about this in relation to the play?

LIL: I never knew I was poor until I went to a rich person’s house. I then realised that in order to sustain that house, those grounds and those servants someone else’s labour was paying for it. I live and work in Hackney, one of the poorest and most diverse boroughs in the UK. You give a working class or marginalised kid just a SNIFF of a chance, show them the path to get where they want and some decent back up, they will take over. They will be excellent, the BEST. I have been mentoring young WC artists my whole working life. I consider myself very lucky to still work artistically with many of them. Some of them I have known since they were 15!  It keeps me very sharp. And this is where my admiration for Dean as a person and as a writer comes in. He speaks and writes so well about when exposure to cultural activities, artistic endeavours and opportunities are given to the broken and vulnerable, how this can rehabilitate. It works! It is cheaper than security gates and cameras!

LPT: About that anniversary, what has been your relationship with the theatre and the people who run it, James Wren, Felicity Wren and Mark Lyminster (production company Unrestricted View)?

DEAN: My first play was on at the Hen and Chickens in 2008- It was awarded Time Outs Critics Choice by Bella Todd. Since then, James and Felicity and Mark have been caring and supportive of my work. They have given me free space to try out new ideas and writing. So Help Me Dog is the third part of a trilogy of plays from within a cell. The second part ‘Cellfies’ explored relationships between the homeless and prison communities. Of how both are often deemed invisible to many parts of mainstream society. This play was on at The H and C. After a short tour- it was on for one week only. It was packed houses for the seven days and received 5 star reviews. The H and C affords us time to get it as right as we can. For that I will be eternally grateful.

LIL: When I got back from living in Glasgow my first job was in the bar at the Hen & Chickens. I have had a panto there (Mighty Boosh played the dark nights), did some stand up, directed and reviewed theatre, attended film festivals. It was one of the theatres that gave free space to the GRAEAE theatre Singing Marathon. They let me use their screening gubbins when I was editing the silent film I directed MAYBE MOONBEAM. So generous and so kind. My relationship with James and Mark is one of mutual admiration and respect. Lest we forget they are also very talented artists themselves. The Hen & Chickens Theatre are a professional but oh so warm team and I am grateful to them beyond measure.

LPT: Back to the show, we hear that there’s an immersive element. Should the audience be worried?

LIL: Immersive as a word has changed its meaning hasn’t it? In a court the jury do not get as close to “the action” as our audience will. They are in the session with us. There is some audience interaction and interplay but no one should be worried. Unless of course you have something to hide. (Cue maniacal laugh).

LPT: Lil, what past directing triumphs are you bringing to bear for this production?

LIL: Phillip Ridley (also from the East End) says working class artists HAVE to be polymaths because we can’t afford to get anything made otherwise. In analogue days this was frowned upon and you were thought of as a jack of all trades. Now, of course, we all have permission to do anything and everything. Consequently, I have had a very interesting directing career. I love Actors. I love Designers. I love Costume. I LOVE technicians. So for me directing is my favourite job. From pub theatres to Live Installations to Outside Theatre. I wrote and directed a show at The Hope Theatre called Strange The Road and went on to write the feature film version which is now in the post. The promenade show, Hound of The Baskervilles for 09 Lives at Abney Park Cemetery. I got to work with an excellent cast and the brilliant Sound Designer, Yvonne Gilbert and that is one of the best shows I have ever worked on. I love working in the elements. (Gary Cain got hugely complimentary reviews for his Watson!)

LPT: Lil, when you first read the script, were there any elements that stood out and gave you inspiration for your direction of the piece?

LIL: ENERGY. PASSION. Just bounced off the page.  I immediately responded to the possibilities of showing what lies beneath those charades in a courtroom. I knew right off we would need brilliant actors.  There is so much depth and physical and vocal gymnastics needed to get it right. And it is very, very funny, as tragedy often is.

LPT: The cast consists of Gary Cain, Claire Maria Fox and Kai Spellman. What do you both believe they will be bringing to the table in favour of the play.

LIL: Kai Spellman is one of the best actors I have seen. As we say in the East End he is “right up my alley.” He plays the lead character Danny Franks and has had to learn the whole script and done a lot of work in prep! Kai can really dig deep for authentic emotion without self regard. That’s rare. He can be subtle and he can play broad. He is also a very funny clown. He can wrap his voice and body around any character. And because he is from a similar place to myself and Dean, he just gets it. All of it. It is like working with a jazz genius. We have a great shorthand. I give a short note. He gets it. He responds and then executes! He is a bloody marvel to work with.

It was, rightly, really important to Dean that we cast an actor who fully understood Dean’s lived experience. His world. Kai understands, and then some.

This is my first time working with Claire Maria Fox who plays­­ the Prosecutor. She has collaborated with Dean and the director, Paul McNeilly before and this was enough for me to know she would be an exciting cast member.  Claire is willing to go there, really go there and I take it as a huge compliment that she trusts me enough to do that. Her and Kai have a great rapport in the court scenes!  

Gary Cain, who plays the Screw, is an old collaborator of mine and I am always relaxed if he is in a rehearsal as he is a complete actor. By that I mean he really cares about every aspect of the show being excellent and supports every part of the process with ideas, support and as a musician he always has good input regarding underscore and all that. His family are from Liverpool (I am a Liverpool supporter by the way) and he grew up in Stockport. I wanted a variety of working-class voices not just from London and he brings that extra Scouse bite.

All the cast and our Stage Manager, Eve McDougall, are all writers too (working class polymaths) so Dean has really trusted us with the nips and tucks that all new plays need. He is often in rehearsals and just gives brilliant one liners on the hoof too! As writers in a rehearsal room you constantly hear us say “Now THAT is a gorgeous line!”

We are respectful of the writer. We all know the pain of a company buggering up your play.

LPT: Are there any worries about your treatment of the play and the audience response to it?

LIL: It is a play about the life of gangster. There is 1970s language and attitudes. There is working class slang. And Olympic standard swearing. There is described violence and drug taking. There is some (male) flesh on show. There is a masterpiece take down, by the writer, of the establishment as thieves of our lives. Of our children’s lives. There is Disco and there is dancing. There is philosophical and theological raging, some sweet, sweet turns of phrase and some archaic references no-one under 35 will get. So something to offend everyone, possibly. It is an authentic slice of social history told poetically in a working-class vernacular.  The responses will depend on the individual’s perception and lived experiences. The play should induce discomfort but there are plenty of laughs and wit too.

LPT: Finally, do either of you have concerns about the direction that theatre is going today? 

LIL: Listen me and Dean have never really been part of “theatre”. (For a laugh I often apply to be a director at the mainstream and subsidised theatres in the UK.  All who say they want to be inclusive and diverse and work with working class artists.  I never get in the room).

We have both ploughed our own furrows as it were. We both work in and on the margins in terms of spaces (like shop fronts, pubs, cinema foyers, cemeteries, galleries, boats). So as outsiders of mainstream theatre what we see is the same ol same ol, they just change the shop windows. Still pretty beige out there and now we are being told we cannot produce political work…oh please. 

However, the Pub Theatre scene is really exciting and historically and currently where, in my view, you see the best new writing and performances in London. And affordable tickets. I think audiences have really woken up to this. Pub Theatres are totally nicking it.  Especially now you do not need a 3 week run to be reviewed, new work can get some space! Can get recognition.

There are the odd blazing stars like Clint Dyer’s and Roy Williams’ Dear England. My mate and co-writer, Amii Griffith (who also had a show on at the Hen & Chickens) took me to see a blindin show, Dugsi Dayz at the Royal Court the other week and innovative, inclusive work is going on at Hoxton Hall in Hackney. There is always something to be excited by.